Do you believe in re - incarnation? I do. I think of this world as a big classroom. Everytime we come back to the earth we are in another semester of class. Maybe self - realization and enlightnenment is a class. I do agree with you that nothing really matters except what goes on in your head as that is your own reality. I think that is something you believe. Having others around though may help you gain the confidence to make the leap and find some new realization that you may need to learn in this lifes class. If your standing on a cliff and you believe if you jump you will learn the meaning of life or whatever is important for you it does help to see people there to give you confidence that they will catch you if you fail. I don't know if this helps Curt and if not help me understand it as we may need to help each other out.

hmm.. First of all, i do not have beliefs. If my mind remembers my past lives then yes i will agree but for now my only answer to reincarnation is "i dont know".

What goes on in my head and yours and everyones, is what other people have told you and then you use that intellect to rearrange the second-hand knowledge and claim it as your own. So no, i dont trust my own head either, even what im saying here - dont trust it cause i dont even trust it myself....

Having others around you is the poison, for example do not take whatever i say seriously, im just joking here, just playing, passing my time but the problem arises if you think that what im saying is supposed to help you or something... no it isnt supposed to help you... The desire to be helped and to have people around you, is the barrier. You dont trust yourself enough, and i dont blame you... how can you trust a tape recorder? hmm?
Youre alone,helpless and hopeless but you keep on creating and inventing desires and dreams that there might be some hope, im telling you there isnt. You take the jump, you start travelling on your own, and you will realize that you have been never away from "home". Your desire to be a buddha or whatever the hell it is, is the reason why you cant find home...

Yes you have to fail, if there are people to catch you then you will not fail, you have to fail completely... if you want success then dont bother yourself with so called meditation.
The funny thing is, that people start meditation because they think meditation is gonna be there new success, no it isnt, meditation is the path of failure.

I will repeat again, that whatever i have just said... dont take it seriously

Hi Curt.
I agree with some of what you say, that we have to question everything, and that it is easy to get trapped by certain practices, but I suppose when I read your posts I don't feel any appreciation of this great mystery that is life.

You say that enlightenment doesn't exist. Personally, I do not know if it exists or not.
I have a few questions for you.

Firstly, I was wondering if you consider yourself to be in such a space (enlightened), and as such can make that statement as fact, or is it just an opinion? Is it personal experience? Or are you just denying something because you are not in that state?

Secondly, do you believe that sages such as Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi etc who advocated spiritual practice and spoke of enlightenment were deluded?

Thirdly, you said "First of all, i do not have beliefs", yet many of your posts seem to be stating a negating viewpoint, and strong opinions. Are these based on your beliefs?

Cheers.

hey ewal67

I advise you to listen to system of a down albums, they are very meditative albums... lol

There are two qualities to the "enlightened sages" such as ramana etc, first is, they have realized there real self/emptiness/buddha nature etc. The second is, that they are always conscious of what they are doing. You can realize your eternal self/emptiness/buddha nature but fall into an unconscious spiral such as UG krishnamurti. Meditation is a hindrance to this realization because this realization of your "eternal self" only happens when there is no expectation,desire,hope etc.
The realization though is not enough, the realization can give you a superboost into becoming conscious or a superboost into becoming unconscious. The reason osho says "first do alot of effort, then be effortless", the reason is, so that you are conscious and then only the realization is needed to make you fully conscious.
Thats all there is to it, 1 - always being conscious, 2 - realizing your eternal self. Most buddhas first do the first then automatically they move onto the second. In my case it was the opposite, i did the second and now im moving into the first.

To me there is no enlightenment, because to drink while drinking, and type while typing and sitting while sitting is not an achievement and even realizing your eternal self is not an achievement at all because you were always there, so to me theres no enlightenment theres only the act of being conscious.

My posts always change, sometimes in favor of meditation sometimes against, because truth has more then one aspect, a belief doesnt change, but in my case they do = there is no beliefs here.

Originally Posted by curt-711

hey ewal67

I advise you to listen to system of a down albums, they are very meditative albums... lol

There are two qualities to the "enlightened sages" such as ramana etc, first is, they have realized there real self/emptiness/buddha nature etc. The second is, that they are always conscious of what they are doing. You can realize your eternal self/emptiness/buddha nature but fall into an unconscious spiral such as UG krishnamurti. Meditation is a hindrance to this realization because this realization of your "eternal self" only happens when there is no expectation,desire,hope etc.
The realization though is not enough, the realization can give you a superboost into becoming conscious or a superboost into becoming unconscious. The reason osho says "first do alot of effort, then be effortless", the reason is, so that you are conscious and then only the realization is needed to make you fully conscious.
Thats all there is to it, 1 - always being conscious, 2 - realizing your eternal self. Most buddhas first do the first then automatically they move onto the second. In my case it was the opposite, i did the second and now im moving into the first.

To me there is no enlightenment, because to drink while drinking, and type while typing and sitting while sitting is not an achievement and even realizing your eternal self is not an achievement at all because you were always there, so to me theres no enlightenment theres only the act of being conscious.

My posts always change, sometimes in favor of meditation sometimes against, because truth has more then one aspect, a belief doesnt change, but in my case they do = there is no beliefs here.

I am new to the board here, but I've read some of your posts and find on first read conflicting feelings about what you say. It takes a couple of reads thorough ones to get what you're saying.

To me, the message here is that one cannot be open to receive without having laid the ground work first. It's much like expecting a 7 course meal without cooking it first or ordering it. It's expecting something for nothing and that never works nor is satisfying.

One never experiences the rewards (if any) while performing, that is true for nearly everything. Then, there are instances where the rewards are never experienced, not tangible ones anyway. An example is a boss that fails to recognize his worker's efforts on a huge account. He says nothing, treats the worker as before. The reward though is the fact the worker is still there, working, receiving pay. Granted there is no visible reward as we view it but, if we look closer we see the worker obviously still working at his desk.

I think too much emphasis is on the reward or end result rather than just experiencing life itself, being in the present moment. Not to say that we shouldn't plan for the future or be so in the present we don't treat others existing with us with respect or acknowledge they have a right to live the way they want for that will also produce a reward we'll be wanting to return the minute we get it.

Rhodes, your confusion is only natural, as what Curt is saying seems to me not only confused but also a simplification of a very complex process. I appreciate your own perspective which takes into account the various layers of complexity, like when you say:

I think too much emphasis is on the reward or end result rather than just experiencing life itself, being in the present moment. Not to say that we shouldn't plan for the future or be so in the present we don't treat others existing with us with respect or acknowledge they have a right to live the way they want [my emphasis], for that will also produce a reward we'll be wanting to return the minute we get it.

Curt has clearly found access to an experience of something which gives him a sense that he understands something. Expressing that understanding is difficult, because part of that understanding seems to indicate that words - and even the processes of knowledge and understanding which words are supposed to convey - are somehow suspect.

Indeed, they are. But if I point at the moon and say, there is the moon, you are not going to believe that my pointing finger is, itself, the moon. You simply look to that place where my finger is pointing and there you see the moon. My pointing is clearly not the moon.

It's obvious that words - those things we use in order to point at a particular experience - are not the experience itself. So if we point, with words, towards an experience which, in words, we call Enlightenment, then it's obvious that whatever words we use, including the word Enlightenment, are not that experience itself.

So, in the first place, I would suggest we can forgo feeling uncomfortable, like Curt appears to be, using words to try to point at this difficult-to-describe experience. Even if our words are clumsy, even if they don't adequately do the job.... It doesn't matter. We continue to try.

Said another way, my words here may say something meaningful to you today. Or maybe not. But there are many, many other people who have talked about this thing - the vast majority of them far, far wiser than I could ever hope to be. It's likely that eventually, even if my words don't spark any recognition within you, you will find someone whose words do spark that recognition - a perfect pointing, for you - for who you specifically are at that moment in time - towards this thing called Enlightenment. Indeed, I have no doubt you have already, many times, found that perfect pointing and it has helped you along your own, very personal, way.

What Curt has found has worked for him - and part of what he has found, especially in Osho, is, in my view, a fairly tricky and manipulative way of getting people to reject all other teachings in favor of that one coming from the mouth of Osho. But even if, in my view, Curt has submitted to being manipulated - without even being conscious of that manipulation - it is still a valuable step along his own path. There is a time for submission and a time for independence - with all things happening in the fullness of their own time and as they could not happen otherwise.

If Osho says, and Curt believes, that meditation is not a path towards Enlightenment (however you might define that) then for him at this point in time meditation is not a path towards Enlightenment. For you, on the other hand, it may - or may not - be. You will find your own way, regardless. It really is that simple.

Speaking strictly from my own perspective.... (ah, yes, Curts-of-the-world, those words "from my own perspective" are vastly problematic, and yet they point towards what we can all understand beyond the words themselves....)

Speaking strictly from my own perspective, meditation has proved a means to enter a state of silence. That silence is a state in which my mind has let go of its habitual concerns - its automatic attractions and repulsions towards this or that or the other thing - a set of habits which invariably resolves itself into a sensation of being somehow this self here named Peter. Absent that habitually asserted selfhood, this being simply sits in the present moment (a process which Deborah elsewhere on this forum has called simple laziness ).

In those moments of simple presence, a deeper realization of the nature of what is consciousness can develop. Once that realization has deepened, further realizations can begin to coalesce, especially in regards to what, at its deepest level, that consciousness actually is. These realizations are not intellectual in nature - they are direct experiences, not sets of words with which we try to describe to ourselves the experience we are having. It's the difference between seeing yellow and saying yellow. That's all.

As to whether that experience is "Enlightenment" depends on how you define "Enlightenment". Certainly it is, at the very least, one aspect of most definitions of Enlightenment. There are many other possible aspects - all of them ways of being and experiencing which are cultivated in some way or another, either through what appears to be conscious effort or naturally in the course of things. Each school and tradition has its own way of pointing towards its own definition of Enlightenment.

In conclusion, just continue along the path you are already continuing along, whether you see that path as having been consciously chosen or not. (But gee, you really didn't need me to tell you that! )

Originally Posted by Peter

Rhodes, your confusion is only natural, as what Curt is saying seems to me not only confused but also a simplification of a very complex process. I appreciate your own perspective which takes into account the various layers of complexity, like when you say:



Curt has clearly found access to an experience of something which gives him a sense that he understands something. Expressing that understanding is difficult, because part of that understanding seems to indicate that words - and even the processes of knowledge and understanding which words are supposed to convey - are somehow suspect.

Indeed, they are. But if I point at the moon and say, there is the moon, you are not going to believe that my pointing finger is, itself, the moon. You simply look to that place where my finger is pointing and there you see the moon. My pointing is clearly not the moon.

It's obvious that words - those things we use in order to point at a particular experience - are not the experience itself. So if we point, with words, towards an experience which, in words, we call Enlightenment, then it's obvious that whatever words we use, including the word Enlightenment, are not that experience itself.

So, in the first place, I would suggest we can forgo feeling uncomfortable, like Curt appears to be, using words to try to point at this difficult-to-describe experience. Even if our words are clumsy, even if they don't adequately do the job.... It doesn't matter. We continue to try.

Said another way, my words here may say something meaningful to you today. Or maybe not. But there are many, many other people who have talked about this thing - the vast majority of them far, far wiser than I could ever hope to be. It's likely that eventually, even if my words don't spark any recognition within you, you will find someone whose words do spark that recognition - a perfect pointing, for you - for who you specifically are at that moment in time - towards this thing called Enlightenment. Indeed, I have no doubt you have already, many times, found that perfect pointing and it has helped you along your own, very personal, way.

What Curt has found has worked for him - and part of what he has found, especially in Osho, is, in my view, a fairly tricky and manipulative way of getting people to reject all other teachings in favor of that one coming from the mouth of Osho. But even if, in my view, Curt has submitted to being manipulated - without even being conscious of that manipulation - it is still a valuable step along his own path. There is a time for submission and a time for independence - with all things happening in the fullness of their own time and as they could not happen otherwise.

If Osho says, and Curt believes, that meditation is not a path towards Enlightenment (however you might define that) then for him at this point in time meditation is not a path towards Enlightenment. For you, on the other hand, it may - or may not - be. You will find your own way, regardless. It really is that simple.

Speaking strictly from my own perspective.... (ah, yes, Curts-of-the-world, those words "from my own perspective" are vastly problematic, and yet they point towards what we can all understand beyond the words themselves....)

Speaking strictly from my own perspective, meditation has proved a means to enter a state of silence. That silence is a state in which my mind has let go of its habitual concerns - its automatic attractions and repulsions towards this or that or the other thing - a set of habits which invariably resolves itself into a sensation of being somehow this self here named Peter. Absent that habitually asserted selfhood, this being simply sits in the present moment (a process which Deborah elsewhere on this forum has called simple laziness ).

In those moments of simple presence, a deeper realization of the nature of what is consciousness can develop. Once that realization has deepened, further realizations can begin to coalesce, especially in regards to what, at its deepest level, that consciousness actually is. These realizations are not intellectual in nature - they are direct experiences, not sets of words with which we try to describe to ourselves the experience we are having. It's the difference between seeing yellow and saying yellow. That's all.

As to whether that experience is "Enlightenment" depends on how you define "Enlightenment". Certainly it is, at the very least, one aspect of most definitions of Enlightenment. There are many other possible aspects - all of them ways of being and experiencing which are cultivated in some way or another, either through what appears to be conscious effort or naturally in the course of things. Each school and tradition has its own way of pointing towards its own definition of Enlightenment.

In conclusion, just continue along the path you are already continuing along, whether you see that path as having been consciously chosen or not. (But gee, you really didn't need me to tell you that! )

I think it only natural when we meet others that come off as confused to try and help them become enlightened. It's like having an unsolved puzzle and you cannot find the puzzle piece. Finding it means solving the puzzle and the satisfaction that comes with it. BUT, like some things in life, the missing piece is sometimes lost permanently as in sucked up in the vacuum cleaner and the bag long tossed. In those cases one either lives with the missing piece or tosses the puzzle. While it's natural to want to solve it, sometimes it's best to accept the fact not everything has a solution.